Monash at Kinglake

what about the water off the roof, the waste from the bbq, the power to run the lights, protection from the prevailing winds?

by cabbie on 28/09/09 ·#

1 tanks in back wall. 2 Not sure. 3 wired to grid. 4 solid back wall protects from Northerlies.

by peter on 28/09/09 ·#

none of that is illustrated, only tanks in the master plan. ?
for an exercise this could have had the potential to really, for want of a better word, ‘showcase’ what a sustainable temporary structure really could do for a community in such a position.
architects wonder why the general populous are sceptical.
especially if this is what the educators are imparting on to the next generation.
for all intensive purposes this is a great project, only a poorly thought through solution.

by cabbie on 28/09/09 ·#

no holds barred from the cabbie. fair criticism too.

i’d temper it by saying the kids did it for nothing so thats cool.
still – it is dull. if thats the price of good will and charity – so be it.

by hairdresser on 28/09/09 ·#

er – what about sou westers peter. used to be considered the prevailing winds in mexico since hairdresser was a boy. u r not exactly going to be out there with the barby on a northerly day – fire bans? but then again?!

by hairdresser on 28/09/09 ·#

hd, free labour is always going to win over sensible design.
hope there is a lesson learned for the academies?

and hd you’re right, sw winds, there is no shelter. who wants to sit around a fire when the icy south-westerly rips over the top of the mountain.
its common sense.
there’s charts that give the information away.
obviously the education system has a lot of answers.

by cabbie on 29/09/09 ·#

I will find some photos of the real thing – it isn’t dull in my book. But I might be reading a different book. Winds there are North through Nor’ wester – bit odd, but that’s the nature of that site.

by peter on 29/09/09 ·#

look forward to seeing some more.
really think the project has a lot of potential.
a hippy/cedric price type thing.
peter its not about the students, they can only be as good as the person running the project.
bring on the humble pie.

by cabbie on 30/09/09 ·#

dull. no big deal. fits in with 95% of buildings.
goes with being earnest. all charity work is tinged with tones of the moral and the earnest rather than just being a job. goes with the territory. its not a criticism (not kosher?)- its an observation.
its only temporary its no big deal.

re wind direction. i won’t be going there so its not me thats gonna complain if its wrong or freeze me bum off if its arse about.

by hairdresser on 30/09/09 ·#

its an open air structure, if we wanted 4 walls to block elements from every direction it would be too enclosed and therefore defeat the purpose. this structure is awesome, think u could do a better u posh little architects, get of ur arse and be underthe conditions we were in and i bet u wouldnt survive. fuckwit!

by kinglakefan on 03/10/09 ·#

Congratulations to all you guys who put this together. A fantastic job. Working for nothing for 10-14 hrs a day in the worst conditions imaginable (…highly paid builders wouldnt do it!) A great lesson in teamwork, design, resourcefullness, community involvement and time management…also working with a difficult brief and with no budget in a very limited timeframe! Sensational achievement.
And to all you guys out there who criticise this achievement, get a life. When you have achieved what these guys have done you might have earnt the right to be critical. Until then just respect what they have done and give credit where its due. In my view they have learnt more about design, construction, the process of getting something built, (as opposed to just talking about it which is really quite easy) and ARCHITECTURE in the ‘real’ world than many of you guys will ever do.

I have seen the construction (I wasnt involved with it nor am I involved with the University) and what these guys have done has blown me away. As a piece of architecture it is a lot more intricate and interesting than the drawings indicate, and particularly so for its resourcefulness. You know what guys – it’s there and its built and it looks great and it wasnt there two weeks ago!!! (Also refer article about the project in The Age 4.10.‘09)

One thing I have learnt in 15 years of practice, there are those who do stuff (achievers)and those who dont do stuff but criticise those who do (non- achievers). Pretty sad to be one of the latter. It also demonstrates a high likelyhood of an unsuccessful career in this field, if that is in fact your objective. Serious designers respect the work of others and learn from it, and there is a lot to be learnt from this.

Finally to any knockers out there…try getting a building like this built (probably a $40,000-$50,000 build) in two weeks (mostly in near freezing and in virtually non-stop rainy weather) with no budget and no help. Also this building is neither banal nor un-responsive to its site as the discussions imply. The design language of the structure and is almost entirely the result of the choice and quantity of materials available which required massive design and construction efficienties. Within these constraints it is a very well considered and executed structure, an exceptional response to the brief and a great contribution to the community.

Great job Kinglake team, realy something to be proud of!

ps. ‘Kinglake Fan’ makes a very good point….

by Registered self-employed Architect and observer! on 04/10/09 ·#

^
easy to see why a bloke like Shigeru ban wouldn’t get past first base in australia…..?

by hairdresser on 04/10/09 ·#

^^ the complete proof that it is impossible to criticise charity work? – should be just accepted – not a bad argument.

Christine Nixons emergency accommodation village is above criticism – she would say so herself – preserves the missionary conventions? – just as it does for indigenous communities unheard by the white public for a 100 years+, or an african community begging to get a tap and a tank from the united nations.

Hairdresser is just a general public knob happy to hand $ over to put tanks on trucks and see em out there in africa – the design of these taps and tanks is shithouse. 30 years of it and they never get better.

I got $ in this one 2, so have other ordinary minds?
This school of arch in question will promote this work done for the emergency village. It already is right here. Schools in Mexico don’t discuss, don’t critique, they promote. What in the end is the position of the charity working architect and student who worked on it. Is it to be as per the corporates/universities and demand a critical cone of silence – they can – they got the loaded revolver of sanctimonious process. If they do then all it is – is a rehearsal for a mercantile life ?

Here is my crit and I’m with cabbie no holds barred now. This thing looks like a kind of tight minded rigid bit of straight up and down trabeated structure. I can’t see the difference between it and Meteoric Twees glass and steel corporate alley off Bourke Street.
I think thats dull. I think this shelter is dull for the same reason. But I welcome the fact that people got of their arses and did something dull.

Does not stop me wishing there was a Shigeru Ban out there in this context – just as it does not stop me wishing someone could give the dull corporates around town a hiding.

by hairdresser on 04/10/09 ·#

I went to Kinglake yesterday and saw this, along with the rest of the village. Frankly, it was really quite a good pavillion structure, sheltered and hospitable, nicely sited with good use of materials. It also seemed to be liked by the people it was built for, judging by the warm response from the crowd when Christine Nixon gave thanks. Of course its not beyond criticism but taking into account the the timeframe, budget, resources etc. (which are relevant to any response here) I think its a great thing for second year students to have achieved. And actually not dull. I certainly don’t think the people of Kinglake were being taken for a ride here.

The angry-snide nature of your comments throughout Butterpaper make it difficult for anyone to respond, Cabbie and Hairdresser – ‘I welcome the fact that people got off their arses and did something dull’ – does everything have to be coated in such bile?

by kmcf on 04/10/09 ·#

^
no worries. happy to be coated in fruit – its tasty.
hairdresser is into design. free, paid for, or the reality of the world anyway? – a lot of stuff that is something in between for most barbers.

Is it a world black and white divided as per registered self employed architects scenario anyway. maybe for corporate dudes?

seems no one wants to have a pure discussion about the out come without colouring it in first. the charity bit is irrelevant. Good missionaries don’t lean on that crutch.

by hairdresser on 04/10/09 ·#

You’ve misread me a bit there. I reckon we can agree that we’re all into design here, and I certainly don’t mind a culture of thoughtful and challenging critique in the pursuit of a better design. But, aside from the ‘good deed’ aspect of this pavillion, which is to be admired, yes, but not taken as the only mitigating factor in our response, timeframe, budget, resources and experience (or lack of it) obviously have an impact on a project and it should therefore be judged on those terms. The second years did well. I liked their pavillion and would still like it if they hadn’t done it for free. And, to my mind, what they’ve come up with is not a million miles away from Shigeru’s ideas …

by kmcf on 04/10/09 ·#

thanx for stepping back a mo,
don’t think i threw mud at students for working hard – check me.
probably wouldn’t be a hairdresser out there hasn’t done it once themselves.
students labouring = the sincere part of the project sans questions.

But —— I defend the cabbie’s right to talk design. happens with all those “highly” paid jobs the barbers are being accused of buying their next lamborghini with or third hand toyotas?

this job is the studio work of Silvia Acosta. says so at the top. I took notice of the name or am i dumb. So did cabbie? looks like east coast RISDE stuff – my observation – nuff said. I’d a been curious as an old hairdresser to see what these kids would do off the leash. why i say dull but hey thats less of a crime than being desperately “interesting”.

what is a crime is the dreadful excuse for an emergency village. Its what you’d expect of a policeperson. I think there were better people to run that show. Nevertheless I can’t wait to hear someone defend that on the grounds of charity. Mother Therasa had her critics too – some would say for good reason.

by hairdresser on 04/10/09 ·#

Hairdresser: you are awefully outspoken for someone who has clearly not actually seen the structure in real life and really has no idea what it is about. Its dullness is your opinion formed only from the montage and diagrams, which you are entitled to, but is in no way a helpful critique that we may learn from so as to become better designers.

To answer the first comment: there is a water tank out the back to collect the rainwater and a trough for using that water to wash dishes. The water will also be used to water the plants that grow in selected walls. The BBQ is electric and works like other BBQ’s do, it is connected to the power cables that run right next to the structure. There are no lights in it yet (the pictures and diagrams up top do not show the layout of lights) but they also will get their power from the electricity cables. The site was studied extensivly by 20 of us students and we found the northerly winds to be the most problematic and have therefore walled that side of the building in responce to such analysis.

This structure was designed for the use of the Kinglake residents whom have lost their homes in the terrible bushfires; not for people to sit back in their computer chairs and make uneducated comments based only on the report of one person and a few diagrams. I am not saying that work like ours is unfit for critizism because we were doing the community a favour, the act of ‘charity’ does not excuss this project from still being a design that is not perfect, as nothing is, and not everyone will like and appreciate it, as is always the case. Criticism is welcome, as Silvia told us: it is the best way to learn from an experience. But criticism lacking in depth, research and understanding is of no use to us.

A huge thank you to those in the community whom have taken an interest in the project, especially those who have visited it and learnt more about it than what has been reported in this very short article. Your comments and criticism are welcome and we thank you for your support.

by Kinglakefan2 on 04/10/09 ·#

yeah i think i get it.
sorting out the practicals is where its at?
there is a large body of thought going back says your on track.

interesting for me to see the philosophy of your school.

by hairdresser on 05/10/09 ·#

all above and in sundry have really good rebutals…
well done to the students….we have all been there…
this would’ve been heavy critiqued in the walls of the academy…every project is, thats why academics are who they are, and not registered self employed architects and observers….
one can only be judged by the evidence presented…
KF2 thank you for clarifying the drawings and serving the humble pie….its hard isn’t it to have something out on display and not be able to defend it…thats the real world…
KF your comment is extremely interesting…a suggestion…a career in politics…better suited for the passionate short tempered….
time for a drink…

by cabbie on 05/10/09 ·#

um so hairdresser.. you sound so educated, is that because you went to uni for 5 years after school like we will, or because you dropped out of school at 16, due to the fact that you were to stupid to pass further maths and other ‘special children’ classes?

go cut some hair and cry yourself to sleep again tonight because your life sucks so much..

and thankyou to the registered architect, and kinglakefan2 (who i already know) i agree with you 100%.

Maybe hairdresser you should actually visit the site before you crit it.. oh wait you are a hairdresser, oh maybe you cant afford to get there.. oh im sorry.. go on.. keep having shots at us in between washing people hair.

by kinglakefan on 05/10/09 ·#

^
politics is definitely for you KLF….
who was le corbusier anyway ?

by cabbie on 05/10/09 ·#

eww politics.. no thanks buddy

by kinglakefan on 05/10/09 ·#

most definitely KLF.
architects can be politicians too….????

by cabbie on 05/10/09 ·#

ceebs.. rather just be an architect

by kinglakefan on 05/10/09 ·#

nup you’ll be a better politician.

by cabbie on 05/10/09 ·#

u havent seen my architecture skills! i also have nunchuck skills.. computer hacking skills.. meh i guess we shall have to agree to disagree.. so like, are u a cab driver?? coz thats almost as bad as a hairdresser

by kinglakefan on 05/10/09 ·#

I live in the temperary village at Kinglake and i have to say thank you so much to the students. I dont think this was charity but rather a win win situation. We needed a central community space and the students needed a place to experiement in construction. Its a far from boring structure. It meanders down the landscape and it has a varity of spaces; shelter in the winter and an open fireplace for balmy evenings. Best of all is the plantings in the walls, i cant wait to watch them come to life! Modest yes, but with the materials they had a very creative and well contructed building.

by Kinglake resident on 05/10/09 ·#

yep, best way to see the city from inside a cab
listening to egotistical black shirts talk about their haircuts.
what about being a comedian ?
wild guess —->
you don’t know who was le corbusier ?

by cabbie on 05/10/09 ·#

so let me get this straight.. we have a cab driver and a hairdresser having shots at architecture students because they have nothing else better to do with their lives? how sad! dude best way to see the city is to get out of ur little yellow cab..pay $15 to go to the top of the Eureka tower (which was designed by architects, without the pathetic critisim of cabbies or hairdressers), and see the site! and yes i no who le corbusier is, ive only seen his name come up 4,000 times this semester.

by kinglakefan on 05/10/09 ·#

Of coarse we know who Le Corbusier is, his modernist works were quite extensive, though who he is and the value of what his done depends hugely on ones opinion of modernism. His paintings or ‘graffiti’ on the walls of E.1027 for example show that he was rather egotisic about his own style which has actually made him rather famous and its only because of his fame and therefore the value of his work that E.1027 is being saved. Its an interesting subject.

by Kinglakefan2 on 05/10/09 ·#

haha very true klf2! lol..

to the kinglake resident its our pleasure, we had such a good time up there, learnt alot and its been great to give something to the community that we know you’ll appreciate. So thankyou!

And to everyone apart of this group, you are all absolute pimps! wwoooooo

now let me get back to my essay..arghh

by kinglakefan on 05/10/09 ·#

this is really entertaining….
these guys are taking the complete piss out of you, klf…
look deeper, its more than just a name.

by clueless on 05/10/09 ·#

clueless is a shit movie

by kinglakefan on 05/10/09 ·#

Ive just noticed hairdressers comment about south westerlies being the prevailing winds in mexico.

Hairdresser and Cabbie: this project isn’t in Mexico!! Its in Australia, Kinglake is a town in regional Victoria where north westerly winds are rather icey as they come straight off the snow capped mountains to the north west of the town. The southern winds are strong coming from the bay and Bass Strait but not nearly as cold nor as much of an issue as they are in Melbourne. You are so much more ill informed than i had realised!! And Cabbie: maybe you should employ a bit of your own commonsense and do a bit of research before you think you are entitled to criticise.

To help you, start with learning a bit about the black saturday bushfires that ripped through Victoria on Feb 7 and the month after. Then you may better understand the area, its people and the purpose for this building.

Also, for the plan up top, north west is at the top of the page

by Kinglakefan2 on 05/10/09 ·#

apologies…to get back to the point….
“all above and in sundry have really good rebutals…
well done to the students….we have all been there…
this would’ve been heavy critiqued in the walls of the academy…every project is, thats why academics are who they are, and not registered self employed architects and observers….
one can only be judged by the evidence presented…
KLF2 thank you for clarifying the drawings and serving the humble pie….its hard isn’t it to have something out on display and not be able to defend it…thats the real world…”..your work will get criticised….

by cabbie on 05/10/09 ·#

oh well…at least we can laugh at your expense, klf..

by clueless on 05/10/09 ·#

ohhhh they are from the other side of world.. HAHA makes more sense now.. i forgive ur stupidity

by kinglakefan on 05/10/09 ·#

Yes, thank you, i understood that. I know our work will be criticised. But now let me criticise you: the evidence presented is clearly titled ‘Monash in Kinglake’ not ‘RISD in Mexico’

by Kinglakefan2 on 05/10/09 ·#

no they probably sit right next to you in your lectures…
mexico is a slang reference for being south of the boarder….
we all forgive your stupidity…

by clueless on 05/10/09 ·#

Im a resident at the Kinglake Village and I couldn’t be more happy with the job these students have done. Klf 1 and 2, sounds like your both students there, and i thankyou kindly and wouldn’t be laughing at your expense at all, id be laughing at these other ill informed people who clearly havent visited the site and are not from around the area. Appreciate their hard work and efforts, dont give useless criticism.

by ruth on 05/10/09 ·#

play the ball not the man….
ruth from my ready and understanding, neither the hairdresser nor cabbie, question or criticise the endeavours of the students…these guys are being worked up…the critique is of the university teaching pedagogy….if the project was driven harder you would have a even better result…..
there is no doubt the work is greatly appreciated…and will be greatly utilised…

by clueless on 05/10/09 ·#

as another of the students involved in this project, i appreciate that we get a taste of the real world, in finding that we are being criticised merely three days after finishing the project. thankyou for your honesty. to those who support us, thankyou so much, we couldnt have wished for a kinder reception and appreciation than what was received on saturday at the opening of the village. we hope the project is enjoyed by everyone, and please, if you have an opinion…go and see it first. ps. clueless, we worked as hard as we possibly could to get this project up and running, there would have been no way it could have been driven any harder. we haven’t slept in months, as i’m sure many architects understand, take it or leave it as wou will.

by kinglakekid on 05/10/09 ·#

thanks for translating clueless
klf 2
there is no north point on the drawing.
the water tanks are not on the drawing.
what was presented above lacked communication, its not your fault, the black shirts that teach you are to blame…critique…
been researching..going to have to eat some more humble pie, with this climatic data
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_086142.shtml

by cabbie on 05/10/09 ·#

kinglakekid…falling water ?
got an opinion?
don’t take it so personally…its only a building…
and what happens when they pull it down…
its the name of the game….

by clueless on 05/10/09 ·#

Do you actually have any concept of how hard the project was driven clueless? I don’t see how you can know how long and hard we’ve been working on it. Plus, their intentions may not have been to attack us, but rather the institution, but it is our design and we will defend it where we feel it needs it. We are not afraid of criticism as we do get it all the time at uni.

You are quite right cabbie, there is no north point on the drawing, nor is the water tank shown as this particular plan was only drawn for the purpose of showing the flooring materials and their layout. These drawings are not completely finished, i have no idea where peter got them from. They will however be finished and much more helpful to you in the publication when it comes out, it is not finished yet. Plus, Peter is not an architecture tutor at our uni, he only attended a presentation.

by Kinglakefan2 on 05/10/09 ·#

who am i kidding, your all right. this thing is so awesome, there is no way i could do it myself. im just a low life who has to much spare time. hope your all more succedssful than me one day! not that it will be hard

by clueless on 05/10/09 ·#

Haha, i no your taking the piss, but i still agree

by Kinglakefan2 on 05/10/09 ·#

need a job clueless ?

by cabbie on 05/10/09 ·#

nah i can do better than drive cabs.. thanks anyways

by clueless on 05/10/09 ·#

what about monash ?
you could realise your true potential

by cabbie on 05/10/09 ·#

monash is a great uni cept i wouldnt be able to get in. too clueless!

by clueless on 05/10/09 ·#

would you two do everyone a favour and seriously shut the f up. You two are both clearly in love with each other, so get a room, lock urself in there, and make fugly babies

by kinglakefan3 on 05/10/09 ·#

wow i go and do some essay and i come back and WHAM look at all the commotion! sheesh! so im going to change the subject..

soooo

who like the killers?
i do!

haha

by kinglakefan on 05/10/09 ·#

If we gave you a few weeks and a tub of garnier fructis, perhaps you could style the temporary village a better structure hairdresser?

by NWwindlover on 05/10/09 ·#

omg klf3, even though we asked for some support, that really wasn’t very helpful!!

by Kinglakefan2 on 05/10/09 ·#

killers? anyone LOL

by kinglakefan on 05/10/09 ·#

i do agree that images do not depict clearly the built structure nor the intent of the design, so just a few points that you haters may be interested in knowing.
i will keep it simple for the children, taxi drivers and hair stylists..

one. the structure was (where possible) made from donated materials, which substantially reduced the material and therefore potential for complex design outcomes.
two. recycled pallets have been used in a number of ways, each altered from their original form and used as flooring, planter boxes, walls -each with unique qualities suited to their location on the building and their purpose.
logs from the local trees which were cut down due to the fires were used for seating and flooring.
three.WATER OFF THE ROOF is COLLECTED into a hidden WATER TANK which can be used for CLEANING UP AFTER BBQING.
the N and W walls were clad to prevent winds from those directions, but access was needed from an existing path so we were unable to entirely enclose those sides.

etc,etc
etc.

..at least thats whats sylvia told us after she designed the whole thing and we sat around watching her,.. cause we’re only university students..
right cabbie?

by rainman on 05/10/09 ·#

i love rainman!

by kinglakefan on 05/10/09 ·#

rainman,
thanks for the explanation on the design.
so the hairdresser was right this is a sylvia project.
looks as though she goes around the world helping communities with similar projects.
http://urbantalks.blogspot.com/2009/07/thursday-6-august-2009-700pm-art-of.html
p.s read the comments

by cabbie on 06/10/09 ·#

For those interested in seeing the updated drawings, and photos of the finished building, there is a selection on Australian Design Review.

http://australiandesignreview.com/news/13921-Kinglake-Community-Shelter-opens

Drawings show the hidden water tanks, too.

by ADR on 06/10/09 ·#

ADR fantastic, enjoying the details…
the beam and the downpipe notes on the gutter detail have wrong leaders on them. oops.
the cabbie prefers this sort of dullness hairdresser.
its what the everyday is filled with.

by cabbie on 06/10/09 ·#

i love syvlia.. wat an absolute legend!

by kinglakefan on 06/10/09 ·#

*sylvia my bad! lol

by kinglakefan on 07/10/09 ·#

the hairdresser has been in kinglake last 2 days working up a new flameproof hairdoo. u guys run american compasses? or your on drugs? – the artic wind blowing up his and his customer back was from the sou-west….but the sun was shining. ^^^^^^nice job on the idea but – your schools def. a winner with its power spin courses on international expertise and straight faced presentation. keep up the good work.

by hairdresser on 07/10/09 ·#

anyone else want the hairdresser voted of the island?

by kinglakefan on 09/10/09 ·#

hell yeah!

by monashstudent on 09/10/09 ·#

u misunderstand.
monash university has done a great job.

just happen to think nailing packing cases pulled apart to poles and piling beams on top of beams is……..dull. u don’t. DCM don’t either. I’d go with DCM.

u guys rule – u were born 2? your next job should be with the indigenous intervention. there is a 200 year take it or leave it tradition there of charity and fcuk the criticism. take no prisoners is a good motto.

by hairdresser on 09/10/09 ·#

This project can be critiqued in three ways:
1. students effort – 11 out 10 – and every student must be congratulated
2. community project – based on the web link comments above, Sylvia/Monash could be accused of running a paternal studio. This can only be measured by the degree of community engagement and empowerment.
3. architecture – its the only thing left after everyone leaves, which means points 1 and 2 cannot form part of its critique

by luke on 11/10/09 ·#

Yo hairdresser, I’m really happy for you, imma let you finish… but Joh Bailey is the best homosexual hairdresser of ALL TIME!

by Kanye West on 12/10/09 ·#

come on kanye, is that all you got ?

by nigel on 13/10/09 ·#

Man, I’m Kanye West, Imma lyrical genius! And I also like fish sticks… (refer to south park episode)

by Kanye West on 13/10/09 ·#

just like to say well done to the hardworking second years who put this together,
im a first year at monash architecture, and i would have loved to have been involved!well done to the 20 students involved!!

i live in the yarra valley and although it was a terrible event which devastated so many, its great to see everyone helping each other- for free! a build like this wasnt cheap, in terms of matierials and labour, and im sure its greatly appreaciated by the kinglake community. however, the use of recycled matierials, doesnt give architects much to work with sometimes- so for those of you criticising the ‘design’ or ‘look’ or the project- clearly they were restricted in what was achievable.

once again well done- i wish theyd given first years the opportunity to participate.

by 1st year architecture student on 05/11/09 ·#

oh and btw, i like the look of the overall design- and kinglake fan/kid…etc… others who busted there bums designing and building… i dont think cabbie nor hairdresser will ever know how tough it is to design a building. its really tough. so well done! and for second years- your drawings look hot.
ill be seein you in combined studio classes next year- i look forward to working with you all!

by 1st year architecture student on 05/11/09 ·#

@1st year – love-in style circle-jerks are great..but not really part of an architectural education.
you need to be able to argue for your designs and to take criticism – either to ignore or to improve.
best way – get the sh*t kicked out of something you poured your soul into and have to step up and defend it.
Guessing you’re going to love the 2nd year “thick-skin” crits…

by kingnik on 05/11/09 ·#

true 1 st year architecture student – HD will never now how tough it is to design a building nor is HD likely to be interested. hairstyling + corruption is the HD main thing with a side interest in architecture..
i made a mistake here – didn’t realise it was a college of building project. u all did a good job designing for construction management and building facilitation consultant trainees.

by hairdresser on 05/11/09 ·#